Heaven and Earth E2

[Music] Foreign [Music] Collins and this is part two where we Talk with Tim Mackey PhD about heaven in The last episode we talked about how in The Hebrew language the word Heavens is Always plural and it always refers to The sky and it is assigned as a place Where God's presence dwells biblical Authors will use the sky as a way of Talking about the nature of God's space That it's high it's Transcendent it's Authoritative it's where he sees Everything but in biblical thought God's Presence isn't only in the sky we know That they believe that God's presence Was accessible here on Earth his throne In heaven overlapped with Earth in fact The whole point of creation is for God's Space and our space to be United and in The story of the Bible it begins with God's space completely overlapping with Human space that's the ideal that's the Whole point that's the whole point but It isn't our reality right now and so in Hebrew thought and biblical thought There was still a place where you can Find God's presence where God's presence Overlaps with ours and that's the temple Temples are the pointers to the reality That God's presence should ought to and Will one day once again permeate all of His world just like it was back in the

Ideal which raises the question well Where did it go why isn't it everywhere Anymore and that is how this whole set Of Concepts is a really cool way of Looking at the story of the whole Bible As the story of the reunion of Heaven And Earth So here we go part two of a three-part Conversation on Heaven thanks for Joining us here we go [Music] Okay so the story of the Bible begins And we have Adam and Eve and we have God And in the Garden of Eden so so we're We're the humans live and where God Dwells that's the same space There's no Distinction Um so God's space in our space are uh Completely overlapped but then there's a Schism something happens so what's the Story there the story is that heaven and Earth God space and human space Overlapped in the garden humans rebelled And so found themselves banished from God's space and live in the world where They die and horrible things happen and People do horrible things to each other So we yeah we explored this in the video Just in terms of the Rebellion Of humanity Um is what disqualifies them so the yeah The Rebellion the the vision can we talk About how Um God put a

Uh Sphinx thing in front of the garden Oh that's interesting okay yeah so the Idea is after the humans rebel against God rebel against his command and so on Um they don't drive God out of the world What they are is banished out of the Garden the garden we're having an earth Overlap in out into a place where God's Presence isn't as immediately accessible And the guardian of the that boundary Line yeah uh is called kerrovim or Cherubim in English how we refer to them Um which uh in in the Hebrew Bible are Not Human-like figures they might have some Human features but always mixed together With animal like features so they have Wings but they are not people with wings There are no human figures with wings in The Bible hmm that's a strange mutant That appeared somewhere later in Medieval church history all of the Winged figures uh that are connected With God's presence in the Bible are a Mix of animal and sometimes they have Like human hands or some part of a human Face but not a human body feet or Anything like that so uh and what these Creatures are have parallels in among Israel's neighbors yeah about these Animal-like multi-form multi-animal like Creatures that are Guardians of the Divine space and so the Sphinx is one of Those

Um so it's the guardian of the king's Burial chambers that are the pyramids And so it's a lion-like figure but with One of the pharaoh's heads and we know Uh these figures like the Assyrian Lamasu statue yeah is of uh like a box Or like a like a I think it's a lion's Body but oh yeah the king's head uh some Wings and some wings yeah Wings the way That the cherubim are described in the Temple is also of these multi-form Animal-like creatures that have wings Ezekiel's vision and they guard and They're in the holy of holies and they Are over the arc Arc yeah they Shadow The ark and um there's a Psalm hmm There's a a few places in the Psalms Where God has said to dwell above the Caribbean or the one who isn't thrown Above the Caravan so yeah that's what These creatures are so when Adam and Eve Are banished from God's presence it's Right there is a figure who the Israelites would know the figure Associated with God's presence in the Temple yeah um so let's talk about the Sphinx then in Egypt Um in what way was it actually guarding The tomb because it's just a statue it's Not gonna like get me if I try to go in And yeah and steal the king's body or Something uh yeah I mean this is Symbolism and again we're to that point Again where was it just a symbol they

Just they knew that there was some Protection around this Temple and they Symbolized it yeah with these statues Correct yeah and and what these which Would seem really amazing I mean I can Imagine walking up to one and being like Whoa this is intense it's very Impressive very impressive yes the Sphinx still today is extremely Impressive I've never seen it yeah I'm Just it's yeah it's very it's a profound Thing you're also looking at it with a Thousand other people cameras and stuff Kind of diminishes taking the best photo Ever of the Sphinx that's right but Imagine being you know just yourself and A few other people walking up to the Pyramids and you have to pass on the Road this enormous intimidating creature Yeah and yeah this the symbolism of all Different kinds of creatures it's it's As if all creation is standing guardian Of the Creator space I mean it's it's a Place it's Transcendent you know it's a Gateway to The the most important thing in the World many cultures have a concept of The Divine space being marked by a Boundary where you meet some animal-like Protector creature I keep thinking uh Did you ever did you ever watch um the Never-ending story growing up dude I was Just about to bring it up really yeah It's those two statues yeah and then

Their lasers shoot out and Destroy Anybody who passes yeah their pants They're like Guardians right yeah those Things man I remember as a kid just Being yeah so it there's there's Something of that idea in in the Garden Of Eden because the Caribbean guarding The Garden of Eden has a flashing sword A sword that's flashing yeah um yeah These things have Um Wings massive wings and they're kind Of like a it's kind of like a woman Slash leopard or I don't know but yeah Yeah wearing it yeah yeah those are Totally care of him like figures Um in the garden yeah the third President regarding there so if I were An ancient Israelite I and I was like Hey how did this all start you'd be like Well there's a garden Eden and and it's out there somewhere I Mean Because if you if you go try to find it If you happen to run into it you're Gonna run into a share a Caribbean how Do you pronounce it Caribbean It's gonna be this Caravan there with a Flaming sword and it's not gonna let you Pass and and then I'd be like well that Sounds intense this is somehow related To the idea of God's holiness as being Powerful and good and also dangerous at The same time right Um like yeah it's super good it's a

Great place But to go in there on your terms this Thing's gonna destroy you won't be good For you you can't even get in just like I don't get to determine the terms of The Sun and my is really the sound in my Relationship right that's bad English I don't get to determine the terms of my Relationship to the sun yeah you know The sun's really good I'm really happy For it but I can't let's keep it a Couple million miles away yeah fly a Million miles to it and not wear Sunscreen and think that it's all Everything's going to be fine so that's These images are getting at this idea of The Transcendent otherness of God as Holy and the Creator and so whether or Not someone back then really was like oh Man I could actually run into this place Or not or they're like oh I get it That's a rich metaphor for something Like regardless of that like that's the Image And it's pretty intense yeah that's There but the thing is is you could I Mean you can imagine like let's say you Live back then and you show up in Egypt You just you're you've never been there Before yeah and you run into this thing Yeah it's the first time you've ever Seen it and you just didn't know it was There yeah that'd be so intense you'd be Like whoa and you'd go back and you'd

Tell stories about how intense this Thing was so I mean it it isn't that Ridiculous to have a story about if you Go and find this place it's guarded by This crazy creature creature yeah yeah a Little Slayer it actually doesn't say The sword hold on let me just if I Remember correctly with it it says Lightsaber is it is it Hebrew for Lightsaber yeah there's no mention of The Caravan holding the sword oh it just Says he placed there on the side of the Garden caravim and a flaming sword that Was flashing back and forth and Hebrew It's really Uh yes it's the word turnover so it Doesn't even say there's anybody holding The sword so it's this idea of a sword Floating there Going like spinning around doing like Ninja moves by the entrance so that you Can't pass it that sounds gnarly it's Like a really intense mini miniature Golf obstacle I think I I think I know The plot for Mission the next mission Impossible So my Tom Cruise has got to get through There yeah he can do it yep I bet he Could I bet he could like ballet so all To say Um that was a vision of Heaven God's Presence Guarded by a flaming sword in the Cherubim caravim I'll get it

I'll just say I'll just do English Cherubim yeah Do that way that you speak English I Speak English yeah it's cherubim right It's still that's a weird word too it is The problem is that that word makes you Think of the tiny plump naked babies With wings yeah I know Caribbean and That's definitely a mutant A mutant creation yeah Um a q1 acute mutant a cute yeah so Nothing like that in the Bible and then So we've got this picture of of Eden Being God's presence we've got this Picture of the skies above this Dome That was the understand back then that's Where God's presence is and then we have This idea of the temple this place here On Earth this very special location a Hot spot where God's presence is but Then Solomon would be like yeah but it's Not like God can really be here fully And when Isaiah has the vision half of Them's there half of them's not there And then God's like look I'm everywhere Yeah so yeah there's an acknowledgment That the temple is itself one huge Elaborate symbol A pointer to the fact that God's purpose Is for his personal presence to fill and Permeate the whole of creation as it Once did or was supposed to and as it Will again one day in the future so all Of the key passages in the prophets that

Point to the hope of the world it's not Of people leaving Earth and going up to God's space that's the opposite it's of God's space coming to fully overlap with Earth so Isaiah 65 where it's the first Mentions of the phrase new Heaven and Earth God says I'm going to create a new Heavens and earth a new sky and a new Yeah new Sky new land so a new or whole New order because the former things the Order of the World As We Knew It Won't Be Remembered but be glad and rejoice Forever in what I will create I will Create Jerusalem to be a delight in its People a joy and modern Western readers We're like wait wait is he creating a New creation or is he creating a new City in Jerusalem but in the biblical Imagination those are the same thing Because the Jerusalem Temple is itself An image of the joining of Heaven and Earth and that's where the god of Israel's presence uniquely was and so It's it's so to speak the epicenter Where the new creation will emanate out Of uh so the Jerusalem Temple and the New creation is joined together in in The prophets so at the conclusion of the Book of Joel Um you have this image of I the Lord Your God will dwell in Zion my Holy Hill Zion being Jerusalem Zion is another Name for yeah the mount where the temple Was my Holy Hill Jerusalem will be holy

Foreigners won't invade her anymore in That day the mountains will drip with Wine and the hills will flow with milk The Ravines will run with water a Fountain will flow out of the temple the Lord's house it's all this Garden of Eden imagery Um where you had out of Eden was a a River it was a Fountainhead of a river That goes out and there's wine and milk Just falling out you know flowing out of There was no wine and milk in Eden right Sorry this is imagery of garden imagery Yeah so Vineyards Hills flowing with Milk is obviously it's a metaphor of Abundance yeah so Hills don't flow with Male animals who eat the grass that'd be Pretty crazy if there was just milk Flowing out of the Hills Yeah but this is poetry it's poetry yeah So oh super abundant super abundant food Just food for everyone just flows out of Creation with no effort as a good Divine Gift which it doesn't normally it just Does it at a slower pace so these are Joel 2 Isaiah 65 Ezekiel 47 has the Stream emerging out of God's Temple and It leaves it goes down to the Dead Sea The most Barren spot on planet Earth and It fills it with life and green trees And so on so all of these passages Connect the hope for our world in the Image of in Temple language and Garden Of Eden language uh and it's all so in

Heaven and Earth unite when God's space Comes down and it's fullness it's just Abundance the food the wine the water Abundance there's an abundance of it Yeah yeah which uh boy for people people Who live in the super developed Countries that have an abundance of Water yeah Water yes so I say that again I just Turn off faucet and have an abundance of Water yeah especially in Portland yeah Maybe not in California yeah all right There's a drought there and many not all Americans many Americans have access to Abundant food even if they can't always Afford it right it's there it's there You go to the market and you're like Whoa look at all this food so these Images don't strike people who live in Those kinds of cultures with near the Effect where you're scrounging for water And food and if there was an abundance That would be crazy yeah yeah totally Yeah so yeah think of parts of the world Where water is very scarce yeah and Where food is very scarce and these Images would be otherworldly yeah yeah To you Um so yeah super abundance of creation Is a is a Eden Garden of Eden imagery so So the point is that the hope is not to For humans to go somewhere adults it's For God it's not like hey you know life Is rough this really stinks

But you know what one day you're gonna Go to this new place And and things are going to be great Everyone you love is going to be there That was never The Narrative The Narrative was one day God will come here In a new way and life is rough it's Always hard to find food and there's Poverty and there's Injustice and There's there's all of these horrible Things violence but that's all going to Be reversed and there's going to be an Abundance but it's going to be here yeah That's right yeah so yeah you could read These passages and contexts they're Always joined to other images of God Confronting evil and injustice among the Nations and making that all right No more war like Isaiah 2 you know People people turn their swords and Spears into plowshares and pruning hooks For gardening instruments yeah you take The war instruments and turn them into Gardening yeah that's right and and There's no more war there's peace Isaiah 11 Creation produces its super abundance Because there's peace among the Nations And peace among creation so even the Most violent creatures in creation lions And lambs and snakes and children all Coexist in peace So it's you know it's just the visceral Sense there's something wrong with the

World there's something wrong with me It's out of order uh there's a there's An ancient Motif about human Relationships to animals That somehow that we know that's out of Whack too and that Rift will be healed So it's part of our relationship to Creation will be healed and uh that's Hinted at in one of the Gospels Very interesting yes when Jesus comes And he goes out to the Wilderness after His baptism Mark includes a little Detail that he was there with the beasts It says so he's out there in the Wilderness with beasts And many interpreters think that's an Illusion that's a garden illusion of Adam with the animals with the animals Yeah so where Jesus goes there's a Little explosions of Eden surrounding Him it's very cool yeah [Music] [Music] Foreign [Music] So we're up through the prophets and at This point In the Bible if if you were to ask Um are you going to go to heaven when You die the look back would be this Blank Stare of like you're gonna go to The sky yeah you die No no this is the opposite direction Yeah you're gonna go in the ground when

You die yeah Um Yeah but won't my like Spirit go to the Sky and then just be like what what no But there was you must be a Canaanite All right are you you must not that's Not ever read the Hebrew scripture you Don't know the Bible yeah but what about Resurrection Yes was it there was Uh this might be a complete tangent yeah Um here's what we can say in the history Of the development of the scriptures and Of the prophets and their Reflections on The scriptures they're emerged to Conviction that because God was the Creator of the world and because the World has been so messed up by humans That God's going to have to recreate and Make new his world and not abandon it And so if God is going to do that that Means his love and his commitment to Humans who are earthlings also needs to Somehow go beyond the grave and redeem Even the grave and so Um you will redeem my life from the Grave yeah the Psalms are filled with Metaphors of God rescuing me from a hard Time in life but they use the language Of rescuing me from the grave and then There are Psalms 49 73 that even begin To press these metaphors into reality Almost where God is the only one who Could redeem a person from death and the

Author of Psalm 73 hopes for such a Thing that you'll redeem me and then Isaiah 26 Daniel 12 those images become A reality and a hope that the prophets Believe that when God comes back to make All things new that those who have put Their hope in him will be re-embodied to Live in the new creation there are two Passages where it clearly appears one is Isaiah chapter 26 and the other is Daniel chapter 12. okay and then a Famous image of Resurrection in Ezekiel The valley of dry bones there it's an Extended metaphor to describe God Recreating his Covenant people who are Spiritually dead sitting in Exile and if They're ever going to love and follow Him he's going to have to send a spirit To literally make them make new humans But that's an image of Israel's Restoration it's one of these things Where the metaphor almost becomes the Reality kind of like the way CS Lewis I Think thought of Christianity as the True myth the myth that is the true one To which all the other myths point So these images of God redeeming my life From the grave become a reality and hope For the prophets Man if somebody's if you're interested In that really great book is the Comprehensive study of Resurrection by N.t Wright called the resurrection of The Son of God you'll learn more about

Ancient beliefs about what happens when You die in Greece and Rome and ancient Israel But it's so interesting how these ideas Have developed so in in Jerusalem was so You got the amount of olives and there's A ton of graves there oh today today Yeah and it's like premium real estate To get buried as a Jew yeah because the Belief would is there would be some sort Of Resurrection uh yes the idea the idea Of humans being recreated to a new kind Of existence to inhabit this world Forever and ever is a uniquely Jewish Idea Israelite Jewish idea That in Christianity inherited and Developed because of Jesus resurrection But yeah this was just it's speaking a Foreign language in the ancient world it Was a the idea was mocked oh this idea That you'd be resurrected yeah it's like What an absurd idea right it still is Today I mean it's it's hard to believe Yeah oh yeah oh it really is yeah I mean I can't wait till we talk about Resurrection yeah I don't know when it's Gonna be but I just yeah have a thousand Questions yeah so and yeah the Resurrection is bound up with this idea Of the new creation [Music] Foreign [Music] [Music]

[Music] Okay to summarize the Old Testament Story So Far through this theme Heaven And Earth were unified in the Garden of Eden God's space and our space together We rebelled and there was this Schism This Division and now we don't have Access to God's space in fact it's Protected in this very amazing way but Um there are still temples hot spots Where God's present presence is and Those temples pointed to a future hope That once again God's space in human Space will overlap and everything will Be healed and so that's what the Prophets hoped for and that and that Hope was also referred to as the kingdom Of God yes because because using Heaven As an image of God's space is connected To his rule Um God is enthroned above the heavens And he sees what people do so the hope Is that one day God's space and Rule and Rule will Fully overlap and Permeate all of all of creation and so When Jesus comes onto the scene and does What he does he's introduced to us by The New Testament authors with language And imagery that's all drawn from this Heaven and Temple Garden of Eden Set of ideas So the Gospel of John presents Jesus as

The Lagos as the the word God's second self that God uttered to Bring about all of creation and then John says in chapter 1 verse 14 that That word became a human flesh and it Dwelt among us we did highlight this in The video that that word is the word for Tabernacle it's set up Tabernacle set up The Tabernacle it's a reference to the Tabernacle Temple Um what a crazy God's word is CR his the Power to create with authority is that What they're referring to the creative Act of speaking creation into being A human yes and yeah that human is God's Tabernacle amongst us yeah it's it's God's very Royal personal Temple Presence as a human Yeah yeah so Jesus is so you read the First two verses of John or is that just Verse one and you and Yeah what the heck yeah yeah it's a very Tall claim being made about Jesus you're There right there you're scandalizing The Jews and yeah yeah And you're scandalizing Greeks the idea That the Eternal anything Eternal and Divine Would become human Yeah it's offensive and ridiculous so Yeah this and then Jesus and then that's The same chapter where Jesus then Describes himself as the ramp of Jacob's Dream

So John chapter 1 is just shot through With all of this Heaven and Earth Temple Imagery Um And the way that the other gospels Matthew Mark and Luke do it is through Jesus's announcement that the kingdom of God or in Matthew the Kingdom of Heaven Has arrived in and through him and what He's doing So that's a way it's a way of talking About God's Rule and Reign but God's Presence in heaven always had those Connections of God's Authority and Rule And Kingdom and so the whole point is That God's Heavenly kingdom is now Becoming an Earthly reality in and Through Jesus that and for Jesus to make Those claims in a time where the Jerusalem Temple still existed And like think of Jesus writing into Jerusalem and everybody's like you're The Messiah it's the kingdom of God Prophet yeah and then he marches into Jerusalem the first thing he does is go To the temple Yeah pull this stunt which itself is a Prophetic symbol that I think did a lot Of things at the same time it's showing GSS opposition to the leaders who Allowed the markets to be in the temple Courts it's also Jesus Exercising Authority in the place of Israel's leadership

So the Kings Kings build temples David Solomon and their dehered And Jesus is shutting down the Sacrificial system by cutting off the Supply of animals he's what he's like Acting like he owns the temple yeah and Then in John's version of the account he Just says destroy this Temple and I'll Raise it up again in three days and They're like what it took us four Decades to do it and then John tells us No actually Jesus was talking about his Body That's another development of the Jesus As the temple yeah So Jesus's action in the temple and then His predictions to follow that the Temple would be destroyed the image of At Jesus's crucifixion uh the curtain of The temple being ripped so there's a lot Of there's a lot of bad stuff being said About or happening to the temple through Jesus And that's uh really it's that this idea That the temple under the leadership of Israel had become corrupt and distorted Instead of being the meeting place of Heaven and Earth Jesus said it's now a Den of Thieves and robbers so he claimed To replace it and to rebuild the Temple In the form of his own resurrected body And then his body the the community of His followers who will become the new Meeting place of Heaven and Earth so

It's with Jesus that this idea of the New temple being not a building Like the prophets described in their Poetry but a community of people who are The reality to which the building always Pointed which offended a lot of well it Offended a lot of people and also was Very a highly political thing to say Yeah imagine somebody doing something Parallel to the White House in our day Yeah but it's actually it's kind of more Complicated it's like imagine I don't Know if it's useful or not but like Rome Ruled over Jerusalem so it was kind of Like it would be let's imagine like China took over That's that's actually more upset North Korea takes over comes over and now they Run in the United States but but they're Cool with us and they like our culture And stuff and um they let us kind of Keep doing things so they let us have The White House and they're like hey you Can still have your president you can do The White House thing puppet rulers There yeah and they got things so we Still get to do the whole thing we get To vote and every four years we vote and Stuff but it's really North Korea that's In charge and um but that's how we still Feel American we still like but we still Get to do our primaries yeah and the Iowa caucuses are coming up and we just Still feel like really American about it

All And uh but we're also really bitter Because North Korea like is taking away Our gun rights and all these other Things and so they're getting really Bummed we're getting bummed as well and Then this guy running for president says Like all right he's not even ready for President no no he just he's an upstart From Wisconsin Rural Wisconsin yeah The people are following him around and He's like you start the movement saying The new America is here new America is Coming let's tear down the White House You would yeah you would get torn apart Yeah why would you do that that's the Symbol of who we are yeah how ridiculous And then to actually make a big event of Going to DC entering the White House and Yeah and then you kind of like messing It up like he owns the place he gets in And he like graffitis at the front door And he's like this place is a den of Robbers Yeah that's good thank you John that's Helpful it's a good the thing is a Spiritual sense of the White House there There's a spiritual sense of the Temple Of that's where God's presence is we're Just kind of like yeah that's where the I mean there is a sense of the power the Authority of the state which is very Mystical yeah yeah what what Authority

And as a symbol of identity and who we Are as a you know it symbolizes America The dream the story The Russian identity Yeah yeah it's a good analysis massive Wrench in this thing yeah I often use The White House as a way to illustrate What Jesus was doing in Jerusalem I've Never made it this elaborate Yeah yeah but yes that's the gravity of What Jesus was doing was like that but He but he's picking up on a theme he Wasn't the first prophet to condemn the Temple and its leaders and say God's Done with this building before Isaiah Jeremiah Amos and they were underdogs in Their own day nobody nobody listened to Him but they all said because of Israel's hypocrisy God's done with this Building because you say we're the Nation we're Heaven and Earth meets in Our Capital but you don't live like it And so God so he had precedent for that Yeah that's what's interesting about Jesus is he he acts like a prophet but Then he also acts like the one Fulfilling the prophets they and yeah as The king to which the prophets Point [Music] All right thanks for listening to the Second part of this discussion On Heaven and Earth we're gonna wrap This up in the next episode part three We're gonna look at how Jesus's Followers saw themselves collectively as

God's Temple Um carrying on Jesus's Legacy we're Going to see how that all culminates in The Revelation this apocalyptic vision Of Heaven and Earth coming back together Uniting creation If you want to watch the video that we Made it is at youtube.com the Bible Project it's called Heaven and Earth It's a five minute animated overview of This topic it's a great way to introduce People to these ideas uh there's a lot Of other videos on our YouTube channel We're really proud of them check them Out Youtube.com the Bible project also uh Say hi to us uh we're on Facebook Facebook.com join the Bible project On Twitter at join bibleproj if you're Really enjoying these conversations like I am a way to help us is you can go on ITunes and you can write a review And you can also just share it with Other people All right See you next time [Music] [Applause] [Music] Left my body Hit the road Come and visit me I'll be home I am here